Ramirez and Ramirez

[aflores]

Dear Posters,

Lawbird Legal Services, on recommendation of the Spanish Police Forces (Policia Nacional), has decided to prepare a case against Fabian Ramirez Marcelo, of Ramirez and Ramirez, for allegedly carrying out criminal activities, more specifically theft by swindle.

We are compiling evidence to substantiate a case which we will be filing with the Spanish General Prosecutor on behalf of the public interest, having in mind those individuals who have already been riped-off previously by some nomadic boiler room operating somewhere between Torremolinos and Fuengirola, larger time share companies or fraudulent land-banking scams.

The case will be directed against Fabian Ramirez Marcelo, an Argentinian citizen who has previously been fronting 2 similar organisations (Key Properties Town Advisory S.L. and Fuengirola Servicios 2002 S.L.) and which have been dismantled by Spanish Police Forces, and his acolytes. Mr. Ramirez is a well known operator of the Costa del Sol and he is a familiar face at the Malaga Police Station, in particular with the Fraud Squad (Grupo de Fraudes Financieros de la UDEF Central) (+34 952 046 200).

The operation is called "recovery room" scam and several arrests have already been taking place in Malaga (see below):

http://www.eldigitaldecanarias.net/noticia23667.php

In this ocassion, however, recently graduated lawyers are being used to create an illusion of genuineness and legitimacy and also to attempt to dillute and disperse the efforts of proving the deceipt. Such "lawyer" activity consist of a filled out form being filed with the Courts and stamped. Such claims, called "denuncias", are presumably being lodged in the hundreds on behalf of unsuspecting victims who do believe that there is any possibility to recover any of the money.


Having already met with officers of the Fraud Squad it is clear that the "modus operandi" used cleverly leaves little space to identify the intent to defraud, but the reality is that, objectively, the following are conclusive of the illegality of his activities:

1. Selling legal services when objectively they do not have lawyers as shareholders of their companies, and to that extent pretending to be long established legal firms, when the company has only be around for a few months.
2. Cold-calling previously identified persons who have already objectively been ripped off once. These persons are listed on endless databases of timeshare owners, known in jargon as "sucker lists", that contain as much details as possible about known victims of previous scams. The less burnt these lists are the more expensive they get.
3. Promising success in recovery of funds through the Courts when it is objectively clear to the defrauder, that recovery of funds is all but impossible. To this extent notarial, legal and judicial (ocassionally falsified) documents are used so that they gather the full confidence of their victims.
4. Utilizing unethical, immoral and highly deceiptful sales pitches, bullying at times but ocassionally very sophisticated, to persuade the victim to send money upfront, without regard to their financial or legal situation nor their age.

In sum, our firm will prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the following elements concur in the activities displayed by the people behind Ramirez and Ramirez (since companies don't have criminal responsibility):

1. Representation
2. Falsity of the representation
3. Materiality of the representation
4. Speaker's knowledge of the representation
5. Speaker's intent it should be relied upon
6. Hearer's ignorance of the falsity of the representation
7. Hearer's reliance on the representation
8. Hearer's right to rely on the representation
9. Hearer's consequent and proximate injury caused by reliance on the representation

Lawbird Legal Services staff fully endorse this action and will work in co-ordination to obtain as much evidence as possible from people who have paid monies to Ramirez and Ramirez and that will, unfortunately, never recover any of the losses previously incurred in. To this effect a special section will be published where victims will be able, without the need to identify themselves should they not wish, send any documentation.

We finally strongly recommed anyone who is currently dealing with Ramirez and Ramirez to record, if possible, telephone conversations with the telephone operators, request copies of their passports, obtain as much paperwork as possible from them relating to the successes they have obtained, and, of course, refrain from paying any sum of money.

Lawbird Legal Services will not charge for any of the above actions to anyone, but will not represent any individual claimant against either Ramirez and Ramirez nor any of the previous scams they have been trapped in, due to a) the objective improbability of obtaining any recovery and b) the current inefficacy of the Spanish Authorities to stop this scam from spreading like a cancer.

[aflores]

For anyone who have been persuaded to pay money to Ramirez and Ramirez this is what I suggest you do prior to giving out credit card details or instructing a transfer:

• Request a copy of the passport of the person "cold-calling" you.
• Request a copy of the NIE number of the person contacting you (this is absolutely necessary to have an employment contract in Spain), or Spanish DNI.
• Request a copy of his employment contract.
• Request a copy of the company opening license (licencia de apertura)
• Obtain copies of judgements obtained through the Marbella Courts against timeshare companies
• Request a letter of engagement signed by the registered lawyer acting on your behalf (there is no lawyer to the name of Ramirez), setting out the precise terms and conditions of the legal representation service, the work to be carried out and well as the address where this registered lawyer is working from.
• Request an explanation, in writing, of why R & R believe you should be suing the company that you have lost money to.

Only when you obtain all of the above can you consider proceeding further.

[Unregistered]

We have also been cold called by the above company stating that they can recover monies lost in a timeshare scam for us. We named two companies for them, Ultimate Finding Company and T1 (who are no longer in existence). Stuart Billington of Ramirez is the person we have been dealing with and he sounds so plausible. Everything sounded good until we received his email asking for €560 for administration fees. When i said that i was not happy with this as we had been caught before, he came out with a practised speech. I am so glad that i read this website before parting with more good money after bad. Is there anything we can do to stop these scoundrels from conning more hard working people from their hard earned money?

Also beware of Ultimate Finding Company, also situated in Malaga. They are very similar to R&R but will tell you they can sell your timshare for you and have a buyer already. All they need is for you to give them your credit card details, just to hold, as an administration fee, which will not be taken from your card, and will be cancelled when the deal is completed. We fell for this scam and gave our card details - of course, the money was taken an now we are having trouble getting this back. I should have looked them up on line before paying , but they sounded so genuine. I looked them up afterwards and of course found that they are a scam company - SO BEWARE!!

[Unregistered]

Has anyone had dealings with a law firm based in Malaga, Ramirez & Ramirez?

can anyone recommend the above firm?

[Unregistered]

Dear Trevh

I did receive comments from the lawyers on the report you sent us. Sorry for not getting back to you before. I've been advised not to post them on these forums bacause, as you might already know, we've been sued by the owner of this company which pretends to be a lawfirm.

The report is basically a poor translation of several articles of various timeshare related laws, which may or may not be applicable to your particular case. We don't know if the translation was intentionally done with the purpose of confusing people into believing the have a strong case or not, but the truth is that the report is riddled with errors.

As always, we recommend that you do not hire the services of this company.

Regards

Hi, Like Trevh, we too have been conned by R&R and have also received a report from them, but only after chasing them. I guess it will be almost word for word the one Trevh got other than using details pertinent to us. Wish I'd seen this web site before parting with money.
Over the past few weeks I have had another organisation calling themselves "Holiday Ownership Advisory", who claim to operate out of England, offering pretty much the same services as R&R. The first lady I spoke to was called Faye, and the one today was called Catherine Cameron. This lady stated they had a joint action claim in the Spanish Courts scheduled for the 18th October 2010 and are offering to include us in this action. While the organisation claims to offer free advise, in reality they are not lawers themselves and have to "hire in" legal services who surprise surprise want money up front just like R&R. After reading the various posts on your web site, my gut feeling says they are probably just another bunch of scammers. Do you (or anybody else out there), know anything about them?

[ifv]

I'm sorry you have paid money to these people. We are currently building a case against Ramirez and Ramirez, and several people are in the process of joining. Should you wish to join it too, please PM me or contact Lawbird directly - http://www.lawbird.com/services/contact.

Holiday Ownership Advisory is just another recovery room. I have moved the information on to a new thread.

[Unregistered]

I was contacted recently by Joanne Gofton from Ramirez & Ramirez; I spoke to her for a while and I expressed my concerns about R&R.

She gave me the same spiel they seem to have given everybody else, but she did mention that they were not lawyers, merely information collators for a Spanish lawyer
known as Damian Vazquez. He would be doing the legal work and serve something called a "denuncio" against the company who scammed me, R&R would only arrange paperwork and translations.She told me I could even go into a Spanish police station and issue a "denuncio" myself, but then it would be up to me to chase the Spanish authorities and arrange translations which would be very time consuming.
I googled "Damian Velazquez" and came up with a Spanish law firm's site
http://www.vazquezabogados.es
I won't touch R&R after what I've read on this site, but can you tell me if Damian Vazquez is legit?

[Unregistered]

Hello,

I repeat my question of 23/09: has anyone heard of Damian Vasquez? Thanks.

[ifv]

I won't touch R&R after what I've read on this site, but can you tell me if Damian Vazquez is legit?

The meaning of the word 'legit' (legitimate) is rather broad. If you are asking if this lawyer is qualified and registered, the answer is yes.

[Unregistered]

I too was contacted yesterday by a very plausible and sincere sounding Brian Croker, offering the services of Ramirez and Rameriz to recover money lost to holiday plan. He was very clever at pretending he didn't know who my plan was with, yet when I said I couldn't remember who it was, amazingly the second name he mentioned when making suggestions to who it might be, was Design Vacation - spot on what luck!

I told him I wasn't interested as I had been contacted twice by these scammers who all wanted money up front. He told me there was no obligation and if I did procede the legal costs would be recouped from the settlement.
Did a bit of investigating on the net and found the Law Bird Legal services blog which named Ramirez & Ramirez in the following list which of which they stated :-

" A company included in the list herewith doesn't necessarily equate to them being scammers. The companies listed below are only those that try to pass themselves off as legitimate Spanish law firms or else offer legal services, even if outsourced, when legally they can not. Which is why they are labelled as bogus law firms because they often mislead clients (mostly from the UK and the Republic of Ireland) into thinking they are hiring a legitimate Spanish law firm when it's not the case."

I emailed the blog pages back to them instead of sending my details as requested, when the very polite Mr Croker rang today I again told him I wasn't interested, he asked why? I said I'd researched Ramirez etc on the net and that I wasn't convinced they were legit. His reply was that they where taking action against Law Bird for slander ( or words to that effect) as one of the lawyers who writes for Law Bird is also representing a company Ramirez etc. are taking action against!

More platitudes and suggestions on checking out R&R by looking on web sites as the BBC, Daily Mail etc. Also checking with the Spanish equivallent of the Bar Assocition.

Now after reading the comments on this forum I'm even more convinced "they ain't up to no good."