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Community Fees
Raymundo
Thanks again for your quick response.
Why was this not noticed before ? I think because we concentrated on what actual money was being spent and assumed (wrongly) that the Administrator could be trusted to allocate the fees correctly. Most owners are from the UK and the cuota system is unfamiliar therefore. It was only when a neighbour and myself looked into it more deeply, having read articles like yours, that we came across this error.
The same President and Administrators have been in place for some 5 years now and this has not helped either. I am not sure that it was deliberate or just sheer incompetence but what I now know is that the many Apartment owners are subsiding the few Villa owners illegally and unjustly.
You say " "you are going to face heavy opposition from the rest of the owners (namely those who own a villa, larger commonhold quota) to have the system amended as per the Master deed?
I apolgise for being a little slow but I still do not undertand this. Regardless of when (or why) it was done, the system in place is illegal - an illegal change to the Master Deed has been made, and all I wish to see is the illegal change stopped and the correct amounts calculated as per the registered cuotas/master deed. Why can I not propose this illegal change offficially and, when the vote is not unanimous, get it voted off ?
Regards
Patrick O'Connell
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You're welcome Mr O'Connell.
I think you understand very well the gist of my reply.
Regardless if the Master deed enshrines it you are going to face huge opposition from the villa owners and those with large quota share as they hold a vested interest in keeping the statu quo and not having the current system amended as its detrimental for them
My view is that you are not going to sort it out amicably on your next AGM as you foresee and you will end up leading a protracted fight over the issue in a Spanish court. Again I repeat, I don't think it was a mistake because of incompetence, or maybe I'm just being oversuspicious.
Best regards,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Hi Raymundo. From the previous threads it's obviously AGM time in Mallorca. Our president would like to change the election of the president to every three years instead of at each AGM. He is proposing to put that to a vote. Can it be subjected to a vote or is it the law that the presidential election is an annual event? Many thanks, David.
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Hi David,
As you well write it cannot be done.
AGM's have to be held once a year statutorily as per Spain's Horizontal Property Law (Commonhold Act) pursuant to section 16:
Quote:
Section 16
1. The meeting of the general assembly shall be held at least once a year to approve the budget and the accounts, and in any other time the president sees fit or upon request of 25 percent of the unit owners or a number representing, at least, 25 percent of the assessment quotas.
Regards,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Hi again Raymundo.
But can an AGM vote to have elections for president every 3 years?
All the best
David
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Apologies David, I had misunderstood your query.
That's up to the owners to decide if they want to vote a president once a year or every 10 years for example.
Section 13 of Spain's Commonhold Act rules:
Quote:
ArtÃ*culo 13.
1. Los órganos de gobierno de la comunidad son los siguientes:
...
7. Salvo que los estatutos de la comunidad dispongan lo contrario, el nombramiento de los órganos de gobierno se hará por el plazo de un año.
What the above means is that by default communities should vote annually on the elected roles of president, vice-president etc.
However, if the Community Statutes state that these elections ought to be held for example every three years, then it is legal.
Owners have freedom to amend these elections that by default the HPL rules should be held on an annual basis.
Yours sincerely,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
I live in a fairly large, residential complex in Tenerife. Our Committee is correctly formed and they are very good at having maintenance work carried out and accounts published, etc. However, there is a problem with barking dogs left on balconies while their owners go out. The Committee seem unwilling to tackle this problem, despite a number of complaints.
The worst problems are caused by animals owned by people renting properties. Is it possible to change the Community Rules to stipulate that owners renting out their property must ban all animals? Is it possible that these owners are renting out their properties illegally if they are not licensed to do so by the local ayuntimiento?
Do you have any recommendations as to how we can successfully tackle the problems with barking dogs and yowling cats?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
John
Do you have any recommendations as to how we can successfully tackle the problems with barking dogs and yowling cats?
Yes, how about a moonshade? J/K
Jokes aside, yes you can include this in the Communitie's Bylaws.
As I write in the conclusion to my article on Communities of Owners in Spain:
Quote:
Conclusion
The bottom line is that Community Statutes or Bylaws are the ones that really rule each community and are unique. No community has the same statutes as another.
It is always highly advisable that, prior to purchasing property on a development, you always request a copy of the Community Statutes, known in Spanish as Estatutos de la Comunidad de Propietarios, as well as the Community Rules, if existent. You may avoid unpleasant surprises, such as communities that ban domestic animals or even piano players!
Yours faithfully,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Raymundo,
Many thanks for your confidence-building advice. After following your website for a while, I was aleady fairly sure of the path I needed to take so now I'll get on with prodding the Committe into action. Thanks again. John
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
I live in a community with 12 villas and 14 appartments. The villas and ground floor apartments have their own private gardens, fenced off from the 'community' gardens. I do not have a garden but am expected to pay my quota towards the cost of the maintenence of these gardens. Is it correct that I should pay this?
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Dear Mr Webb,
That's a very interesting point you raise.
Are you sure those gardens are not communal?
I write this because I know first-hand a development which lower apartments have these gardens, which happen to be communal, and owners are now busy fencing them in with cute little wooden gates. This should not be tolerated by other community owners as these gardens are communal, paid for by everyone. They are not for privative use of these lower apartments. Only because some people act as if they owned the place does not mean they are really the legal owners.
You would be surprised how often this occurs. Appearances can be deceiving. Do not take matters for granted, research them on your own.
If the gardens you mention are effectively privative, you should of course not be paying for them as they are not communal as explained in my article which starts of this very thread.
Yours faithfully,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Many thanks for your prompt reply which has caused something of a stir at our community here in Alcossebre!! The gardens are indeed private. The whole of the garden of each villa is contained within a boundary wall. A hedge is included within this boundary wall and the dispute is to whether the trimming and maintenence of this hedge is the responsibility of the villa owners or not. Inasmuch as I have been expected to pay my quota share for the private garden work for the past six years, can I claim retrospective refund for the amount I have paid?
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Dear Mr Webb,
That's the problem with this job, can't make everyone happy.
The trimming of hedges, as its effectively a boundary, needs to be paid for by the Community as it can be regarded as "communal". A different matter is the garden, which being privative, should be paid for by the owner who is the only one who can enjoy it.
Please note that my comment regarding the lower gardens were referring to a closed community made of flats only, not villas.
Yours faithfully,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
are you saying that as the hedges are around the villa gardens then they are a community problem? If so are the railing round my balconys and patio also a community responsibility
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Well façades are a communal element. All Communities pay to have them painted every 3 years or so and that may include the balcony railings as well, indeed. In fact, if you try to paint your balcony in pink colors you will likely receive a nasty letter from the Communitie's President informing you that you are not allowed to do it.
Or pehaps if you want to fence in your balcony using a removable glass curtain this may not be allowed either by the Community and will probably be taken down at your own expense unless the Community accepts it. The reason is because the exterior may be a communal element.
Ground floors also pay for lifts they never use. It may seem unfair but it happens.
Penthouse owners may not own some of the terraces which may belong to the Community of Owners as it may be a communal element.
When you buy into a Community you are also made responsible for the contribution to the upkeep of communal elements of the Community to which you may not even have access to.
Yours sincerely,
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Would all Spanish laws be applicable in Tenerife?
Hi,
I´m new to this forum and live in Tenerife Canary Islands, Do ALL property laws that apply in Spain also apply to Tenerife?:)
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
I own a property in Orihuela Costa on the Costa Blanca in a complex of some 148 properties in total built right on the seafront, basically 'to the line' of what is permitted, i.e. you cannot build in the area in front of the walls of the building.
Every year the same few people try to get a few projects carried out which are basically to their benefit, and no matter what discussions or rows take place at the community meeting, they try it again the year after.
In the complex we have three communal padel tennis courts, and a large swimming pool facility with adjoining children's play area, constructed in the area to the front of the apartments, in the area which ptherwise cannot be constructed upon. They are very nice facilities and allow for extensive areas of garden as well. These are all part of the original project approved by town hall, on the basis of which we purchased our properties.
These residents now want to remove one of the paddle tennis courts and construct a new multi purpose court, approximately twice the size of the exisiting padel tennis court, which will in effect remove at least one third of the exisiting communal grassed garden areas. It will also severely change the visual impression of the complex when entering from the seafront. They have also proposed the construction of toilet facilities adjoining the pool, again in the area where construction is not permitted.
We will be discussing these matters once again at the next meeting, (this coming Saturday). Can these matters be approved by the majority at a meeting, or am I correct in understanding as since they are changes to the actual project and the general asthetics of the complex, that they require a unanimous vote by the community rather than just a majority of those present on the day? What percentage of the proprietors have to be represented in order for such changes to even be discussed never mind voted upon or approved? Can a toilet block be constructed in an area where otherwise construction is not permitted? Indeed where it is not necessary, (no apartment in the complex is more than 100m from the pool in question). All comments and advise would be greatly welcomed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Suzi
Hi,
I´m new to this forum and live in Tenerife Canary Islands, Do ALL property laws that apply in Spain also apply to Tenerife?:)
Hi Suzi,
Not all of them.
Spain is divided administratively into 17 autonomous regional entities as well as two insular cities (Ceuta and Melilla).
Each of these 17 regional entities can enact their own laws in certain matters besides the national legal framework.
So in Tenerife's case, besides the national laws common to all of Spain there will be additionally specific regional laws and even local regulation (from its Town Halls).
Yours sincerely
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
can you explain how the voting works in a community. I live on a golf complex, 36 houses are still owned by the developer. Does this mean that they have 36 votes. I live in the canary islands.
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Dear Kevin
I'll quote my article which explains how votes are tallied at Owners' Assemblies (AGM's and EGM'S):
Quote:
Commonhold Quota
On drawing up the Master Deed before a Notary, every property within the community is assigned a quota or percentage thereof. This quota is composed both of privative and communal elements which are assigned to each property. Store rooms and garages are included as well for this purpose.
This quota is important mainly for two reasons:
1. Because the expenses of the community will be allocated in proportion to your quota. So the larger the quota, the more you will have to pay.
2. Secondly, on voting at Owners’ Assemblies, the quotas need to be tallied for majority vote purposes. So, each owner does not equate to one vote. There may be a single owner, such as a developer, holding a significant communal quota which translates into great voting power. The resolutions reached bind all units within, regardless of whether they cast an opposing vote as majority rules apply (read below).
Sincerely
Raymundo LarraÃ*n Nesbitt
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Thank you Raymundo,.
Based on this system, the owners will never win a vote, as the developer will always ensure that they block anything that they do not agree with. e.g. Our communial pool was repaired by the developer in november 2009, after arguing for 4 years for them to agree to the repair. The estate is 6 years old. We have asked the developer to have the repairs carried out again, it went wrong 2 weeks after the repair. They have blocked the vote and refused to repair it. Do we have any chance.. Many Thanks Kevin
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Hi Kevin
You are welcome.
You can always change the voting system amending the Master deed, but that requires unanimity. So it's a catch-22 as the developer will most likely not cave in and turn down a proposal that would affect him negatively reducing his power base.
Regarding the pool problem, the whole Community would have to pay it in proportion to the share quota held on the complex by each owner.
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Hello again. Can you please tell me how high a wall has to be around a communial pool. Many thanks Kevin
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Another problem. I have been told that once the minutes of our AGM have been published, I have 30 days to query any points recorded in them. Is this the law in Spain? I was in the UK when the minutes were finally sent out and I did not recieve them within the 30 days. The minutes are totally wrong. Do I have any recourse? Thanks
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
can you help, i live on an urbanisation and recently attended our AGM which a vote was carried by 36 to 32 for astro turf to be installed in our pool area, since then a resident has gone to the administrators to object to this approval and has been told on reflection the vote was counted wrong, can you tell me should this vote stand or if it is allowed to be altered can we appeal or force an EGM for a revote
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
I am president of a community. A long term renter has a large dog that keeps on escaping into the garden area and leaves excrement on the grass area. She has had a written warning about this but does not care. Can we do something about this, particularly as we have banned renters from having dogs on the community. This was passed at a community meeting 2 tears ago.
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Letting
Purchased apartment in Tenerife from resale of part of ex time share complex the other part is still in operation it purchased for letting in 2006 It was marketed for rental and said it would be ok as it was old timeshare and had a licence the company that sold the complex even put us in touch with a letting agency that was going to let out for us on the complex We signed up with him and but 18 months later he closed his business and we had to let out ourselves. This we did not want to do but had no other alternative. We have declared all profit for tax purposes in Spain and UK but we have now been informed that we are illegal over 60% of the complex rents out their apartment not sure how many declare but that not my problem. There is a purge going on at present in Tenerife and worried but have tried to do everything by the letter of the law. I use Accountant in Tenerife and have a meeting next week. The complex is appox 20years old and part is still operating as time share. Its still classed as a complex as we do not pay individualy for our water or electricity they are calculated buy our commity and charged accordingly. Any comments would help.
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
I understand that Spanish Tourist laws prohibit the renting of properties on a complex that is not licensed by the Tourist board for letting. However, some publications claim that it is legal to rent properties to family and friends in Lanzarote. Is this correct?
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
We have recently had a report done by one of the members of our community to look at disabled facilities. The community has a number of swimming pools but none have a hoist for disabled access and some of the footpaths to some of the pools are not suitable for wheelchair access. However the pools are not open to the public, just owners and their visitors or tenants if rented. Can you confirm what liability we have as a community to legally provide access under the disabled disability act and the law in Murcia Spain?
Secondly our roads have been adopted by the Local Council but our statutes say we are responsible for maintenance! The report noted that footpaths do not have an area recognisable underfoot (tack tile surface) for the visual impaired and falls short of the DDA requirement. Would this not be a responsibility of the Local Authority now they have adopted the roads?
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
i have just moved into a semi detached villa, with private pool and garden (there are no communual areas at all) in fuerteventura as a renter. The owner gave me permission to erect a satellite dish. Without prior notice, the presedente sent a note demanding that it was taken down within five days or he would do it and charge us for it and the repairs to the wall. There are fifteen other dishes up in the same developement. To save hassle, I moved the dish, but I feel he is being very heavey handed. now he is demanding access to inspect the damage. A lot of people have moved out because of the harrassement from the president. ASa result a lot of properties are empty. The two villas either side to us are empty and there pools are neglected and as a result we are invested by moscitos, but thats seems to be ok. I asked for a copy of the rules, but he said he can not talk to us as we are mere tenants. The owner is none resident and he also asked for a copy and was ignored. The presedent is coming to inspect the 'damage' on SUNDAY at 11.30. As a good catholic, I feel that a working day would have been more appropriate and I feel that this presedent is trying to get us to move out. I would appreciate any help on this matter you can give
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
In our community a question has arisen as to who is responsible for the retiling of a balcony floor when water seeps into the downstairs apartment due to break up of those tiles and waterproof membrane. The owner concerned did retile himself some 3 or so years ago but tiled above existing tiling without repairing the tar membrane so the tiles are now higher than the inner floor and the tracking of the patio doors.
It has always been the community view that a balcony or terrace which is accessed by an owner who has sole use is the responsibility of that owner. The owner concerned considers the terrace is communal property notwithstanding he has sole use and the escritura saying that a private apartment starts at the front door and continues to the vertical wall adjoining the communal garden.
Another owner says the situation is covered anyway by the Civil Code which says that even if the terrace is not private, from the moment that an owner who has sole access changes something, that person is responsible for the work and any liability arising.
The community insurer states the problem only arose due to the nature of the repair work will not pay the claim.
Kindly advise your views - thankyou.
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Hello Teri,
Welcome to the belegal forum.
The President t of the community does not have the right to force you to set an appointment to visit the property on a Sunday and he cannot enter your property without your consent, under any circumstances. After reading the information that you have given us, our advice is that you, in the first instance, insist the owner of the property claims to have a copy of the statutes of the Community of Owners, and then forward the copy to you. If the President still ignores his petition, the owner can take the Community of Owners to court in order to defend his rights.
Form your side, you can end the rental contract or report the case to court so the problem is solved. You will need to evaluate the importance of the matter and decide if you wish to take legal actions, as these will entail legal fees and expenses. We also advise you to report the President of the Community of owners to the Police station for harassment and constraint.
Regards,
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Do Residencials in Ibiza need a special licence from the ajuntamiento to allow rentals? Is there a law governing the right to have a president? Do we have the right in law to have an annual fully detailed breakdown of all the incoming and outgoing expenses of our community. Does the community have to provide a bank of mailboxes - we have none and have to get our post from the administrator's office - he closes from Dec 1st to Jan 16th each year, effectively cutting off our access to our post during Christmas.
We are 20 apartments and the administrator has the voting rights of 11 mostly absentee owners (we do not have a president) and so we have no chance to oppose anything he decides to do - he is NOT an owner. This is only a small example of the many problems we have.
This Residencial is about 14 yrs old and has been run this way all of that time - we are owners from only the last 5 years and feel like we are up against a wall with no way out. Would appreciate any help/advise you can give. Thank you.
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
For two years now we (the community ) have payed 30€ each to be put into a separate bank a/c for the painting of the community block.
This hasen't been done and is being swolled up in community expenses. Can we force the president to open a separate bank a/c.
Thank you. Terry
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Hi Terry,
Sure. You need to speak to the community administrator or president and ask him to hold an extraordinary meeting in order for this to be discussed. Opening a separate bank account can be agreed on.
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
We have just been advised by the local council that our residencia of 400 plots, the majority of which are detached villas, is to become a CO. I am trying to find out the details about establishing a CO from scratch, such as timetables, etc., but cannot make any of the links work at your excellent starter article. Can anyone help with the links please or point towards a starter guide for all of the new residents. Many thanks, Ian.
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
Further to my last question, we have just been advised that our development is to become an Etidad de Conservacion instead of a CO. What is the difference in rights and do we have any choice in the matter? Many thanks, Ian
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Hello Ian,
I believe your question has already been answered via e-mail, but I think it is good to reply it here as well so it may help anybody else.
An Entidad Urbanistica de conservacion is a public Law entity; not Private like Community of Owners. The Entidad Urbanistica de Conservacion is formed by the Owners and other individuals to collaborate with Building purposes, as for instance conservation and maintenance of the Urbanization construction works, public services, etc. This type of entities work in the same way as ordinary Communities, as there are quotas/fees to be paid regularly by the owners, and its establishment is processed by the corresponding Town Hall.
In your case, we believe that after the builder has finished the urbanization, he has transferred the streets and green areas´ ownership to the Town Hall but the Owners of the houses on the plot are responsible for the conservation and management of the same.
The existence of such entities is not necessary if there does not exist any building/construction Works that need to be conserved and managed at the urbanization, though this will not mean that, in anticipation of its future existence, the entity is established beforehand in order to accomplish its future obligations.
The establishment of this type of entity is only compulsory when the responsibility of the Works of the urbanizations belongs to the owners of the industrial or housing plot, by virtue of the indications of the Urban Ordination Plan or Programmed rules of Urban Intervention or should them be obliged by legal dispositions. The ordinations and regulations of these entities will vary depending on the province.
Our advice is that you approach the Town Hall department of Urbanismo and make an enquiry on the current status of the establishment of the Entidad Urbanistica de Conservacion of your urbanization.
Regards,
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Comunidad de Propietarios: Avoid Problems with Your Neighbours in Spain
in a vote of no confidence from the floor against a committe member can that person use proxy votes to ensure they stay in office. The person holds many proxy votes.